| I am not a
proponent of gay marriage being established by the Federal Government
since marriage is an institution defined by the States and by religious
institutions. Like it or not, that is how marriage has
been established in the past. |
| What is new
is that marriage has been redefined on gender boundaries to include same
gender unions by proponents for the cause. You
see, it is simply not "equal protection under the law" to
exclude same gender relationships from having the same
"protections" as "marriage" with the resulting cascade
of tax, survivorship, etc ramifications under the
law. |
I fully support recognizing gay unions on a state by state basis
|
I fully support recognizing gay unions on a state by state basis having all the rights of any other institutionally recognize couple standards. I simply don't see that this is a Federal issue to force one definition down throats of citizens. You'll see where i'm going with this later. But let's just say that a Federal standard will institutionalize bigotry like never before. I
could
also support a Federal statute that would have any "union" recognized in one state being enforceable in another state for grounds of taxation, survivorship, estate, and medical decisions. However, I don't see the label of "marriage" being one that is a Federal power to declare. If states choose to call their "unions" domestic partnerships or even "corporations" then that is up to the states to declare and for the Federal Government to merely recognize equally. It is not the Federal Government's power and authority to define the union and its terms. |
Marriage is
a term that means something - it is a STRAIGHT
institution. Proponents of extending same gender
relationships under the umbrella of marriage are really sellouts to
institutionalizing and bastarding gay unions. For as
long as I can remember the cause for gay equality has sought to deride
Straight culture and to slam it as being too rigid, too narrow, and too
bigoted. And yet as a cause for showing legitimacy to
gay unions, we seek to homogenize gay relationships into the strict
confines of straight unions.
What gives? |
Domestic
partnerships seem more appropriate to me as a way to make gay unions
exceptional and unique.
|
Domestic
partnerships seem more appropriate to me as a way to make gay unions
exceptional and unique. Instead of stealing the term of
marriage from heterosexual America and bringing with it the implicit
failure of the unions to our culture, we should strive for higher
standards and should seek to make our unions
exceptional. How is it a true and just cause to
advocate for "marriage" when that institution fails at least
half the time when heterosexuals try it? And we want
that as a model for our unions?
What also
happens when we seek to redefine terms is that when you start the process
of making marriage include same gender unions, you also cannot be a bigot
and limit unions to only two people. If marriage should
no longer seek to define the limitation on genders, then how can we
logically and ethically become prejudiced against plurality unions where
more than two consenting adults want to establish their familial
units? How can we be such bigots as to limit
these unions - between several men and several women (or any combination
thereof) - from equal ratification under the law?
It is certainly possible that a union of one man and five women is just as
efficacious as a union of two men. All are adults, all
have implicit conjugal relationships and shared property
rights. How is that homosexuals can be so
narrow-minded, so bigoted, so prejudiced against the cause of polygamists
who only seek to live their lives as they see fit - with all the trappings
of tradition and shared love that they've been accustomed? |
This
analysis really does seek to outline inconsistencies in gay marriage
debates that will only be more heated as the current President, a weak man
who cannot take a position on anything until he sees political gain from
seizing the debate as his own, flip flops and suddenly advocates for
"gay marriage". We already have Vice President
Bite Me slip up and advocate for the cause so it is only likely that Obama
will be compelled to rebuke his Vice President or to fold and to assume a
pro-gay marriage stance. And by doing so, he will
legitimize the bigotry against plurality marriages in a view that is just
as bigoted as proponents of traditional marriagists. And
by adopting a pro-gay marriage stance, Obama will also condemn our unions
to the same failure future as heterosexuals.
|
Update: As I expected Obama doesn't back Gay Marriage on principle - he did what he did solely for the campaign donations that were being withheld by gay donors. Obama sold out and reaped $1 million in 90 minutes after he changed his position for the third time. He once had this position as a State Senator but changed it to run for the Senate, waffled on it again as a Presidential candidate, and now only says he supports gay marriage but only through states. And he has the nerve to call Romney a flip floper - Obama is just like John Kerry - he was for it before he was against it before he was for it.
|
....oh, you mean like slavery was once an established tradition, so.......
ReplyDeleteUsing your logic then we should abolish marriage.
DeleteHey, I was using your fucked up logic!
ReplyDeleteActually you didn't use any logic and it was apparent you didn't read the editorial. My reply immediately neutralized your logic and you are left with no basis to argue. I'll speak a bit slower here ... if slavery was a tradition and the way to resolve the tradition was to abolish it, then the way to abolish the tradition of marriage is to also abolish it.
DeleteConsidering that my arguments on "marriage" were far more extensive than just advocating for "gay marriage", you are left with nothing but bluster to offer. You fail to argue in support of a Federal position, you fail to even argue the point that if defining marriage as being between two genders is bigoted, then how can we thus support a position of equal bigotry of two people being the only kind of marriage that is to be recognized. You fail to even argue that point (likely because you didn't read the editorial and just REACTED.)
Furthermore, you miss totally the sarcasm noted throughout the whole piece regarding the institution of "marriage".
I must say you'll need to bring more to this discussion than a wet blanket.
There is NO reference to marriage in the United States Constitution. It DOES say however to seperate church from state. Marriage of a man and a woman is a CHURCH definition, marriage was created BY the chruch. So may I ask, why at the very least, do we use the church's definiton of marriage, let alone abolish it as a governmental idea and instill everyone with civil unions? That way people who want to still get "married" can go off and do so IN the church, and everyone can get the union in the government with the same rights.
ReplyDeleteActually, the Constitution never mentions to keep church and state separate. What the Constitution actually says in the first amendment is...
Delete"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Marriage is both a state government and religious institution - marriage on the religious side predating any institutionalized governmental recognition. State governments have acted to allow for marriage to be conducted at "city hall" for those who don't wish to go through religious institutions. There is no Federal Government marriages being done for citizens so it is not a Federal power to conduct such services.
As Federal intervention as sought by both proponents of gay marriage and of traditionalists is violative of the powers specifically granted to the Federal Government (i.e. it is never mentioned as a Federal Government power), the states are left to establish what marriage is and I fully support that. If North Carolina seeks to keep its red-neck ways and to be bigoted against all marriage except a narrow view, then they have that right under the Constitution.
What we have here is an argument that gay marriage should be adopted on the most specious of grounds while actually legitimizing bigotry against polygamists who have just as much right to be married in their form as gay people do. I fully accept that States should be allowed to determine what marriage is, but they cannot compel a church to hold that service or to recognize any form of marriage as legitimate. Churches should have the right to practice religion as they see fit without being compelled to marry homosexuals, polygamists, or other consenting-adult bonding situations that are violative of their practice.
I clearly view "marriage" as a State issue and power and only through an amendment to the U.S. Constitution should marriage be allowed to be a Federal power to undertake and to dictate.
Bravo UV! You hit that right out of the park.
ReplyDeleteSadly todays public school students, as well as many of the current population were not taught The U S Constitution, The Federal Papers and the Bill of Rights, which govern these United States.
Oh and don't forget the activist judges that for whatever reason, write their descisions totally out of whole cloth.
There is a process for citizens to repeal a law or amendend the U S Constituion, NOT the Judiciary. Period. End of story!
I agree with you on several points, UV, and disagree with you on others.
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings on whether same sex marriage should be left to the states, but I'll get to that in a moment. There need to be changes at the federal level regardless. DOMA must be repealed. It denies federal benefits in all 50 states, regardless of the legality of the marriage in that state. Gay spouses of deceased same sex spouses must pay applicable estate taxes that straight couples do not, and are not entitled to collect their social security. That's discrimination that must be fixed at the federal level.
Whether or not it should be left to the states depends on whether you see this as a civil rights issue. We passed a federal Civil Rights Act for African Americans in 1967 that was hugely unpopular at the time, and did so because the civil rights of the minority should not be left to a prejudiced and hostile majority. An argument can certainly made that this IS a civil rights issue, and the profound bigotry against gays in many states should not stand in the way of them having basic rights. The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly that marriage IS a right.
I think "marriage" is a beautiful word with many positive associations, despite the failure rate and disrespect of the institution in the heterosexual community where it is so easy to do. I don't think the word bastardizes gay relationships in any way. That's a personal opinion, we certainly don't need to agree. I prefer to lean towards an ideal where kids are not told "you are different, so we have a different institution for you. Only straight couples qualify for the term marriage, you get a domestic partnership or a civil union with a commitment ceremony rather than a wedding." That's too "Separate but Equal" for me, and too easy to render not equal, on a state by state basis.
I abhor bringing polygamy into the discussion. It inevitably pollutes the conversation, and is a waste of time. There is no slippery slope here. In California and in Iowa, the justices reviewed whether the state had any interest in denying same sex couples the right to marry, and found that they did not. They would not reach the same conclusion if the subject was polygamy, bestiality, etc. There is nobody lobbying for polygamy being legalized, not even the LDS cults, who prefer to live on the fringe of society. And I loathe when Santorum and others delight in comparing same sex relationships to polygamy, bestiality, incest and pedophilia. "If you let two gay people marry each other, than anybody can marry anybody!". Lovely. And bullshit. It doesn't work that way.
Thanks for the forum, babe.
Aw, you added an update blasting Obama. Clearly you were trying to provoke me, which I know means you are horny. In 1996 somebody checked a box on a questionnaire and said Obama supported gay marriage, which he didn't, and he certainly never campaigned on the issue. He clearly did not support same sex marriage, and now courageously does. Before the election. BRAVO! If that's flip flopping, I'll take that over Etch-a-Sketch's going from "more pro gay than Kennedy" to opposing civil unions; flip flopping on abortion rights; flip flopping on immigration; flip flopping on healthcare; flip flopping on global warming... He gets his Lee Press-On opinions based on whatever way the wind blows, and Obama will annihilate him in the debates this fall. Bring it on, you gay bashing head shaving Ken Doll! :)
ReplyDelete